White Horse Prophesy and the next American Revolution

This Thanksgiving my family gathered together to read from the Holy Scriptures.  Our reading slowly evolved into a discussion about faith.  The conversation further evolved into a discussion about prophesy.  I made mention to my family about one of the most important prophesies ever given - The White Horse Prophesy.  The White Horse Prophesy is jam packed with pertinent facts and prophesies given by Joseph Smith in the year 1844.  Every American should read these words.  They describe the events that will take place to lead us to the next American Revolution upon the North American continent.  We must be very careful how we proceed forward into the future.  There are still things that are under our power to change.  I believe that if we heed these warnings we can avoid some of the pains and trials that will come if we are not careful.  Please share this prophesy with your friends.  It may become the difference between life and death someday.



More information regarding the prophesy -
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09/21/white-horse-prophecy/
http://www.latterdayconservative.com/faq/the-constitution-hanging-by-a-thread-and-the-white-horse-prophecy/

Additionally, if you would rather listen to the prophesy I would recommend you click the following link -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxo8V_6h-Mc
(The prophesy starts after 2 minutes and 30 seconds of his introduction).

1.  On or about the sixth day of May, 1843, a grand review of the Nauvoo Legion was held in Nauvoo. The Prophet Joseph complimented them for their good discipline and evolutions performed. The weather being hot, he called for a glass of water. 

2.  With the glass of water in his hand, he said, “I will drink you a toast to the overthrow of the mobocrats,” which he did in language as follows: “Here’s wishing they were in the middle of the sea, in a stone canoe with iron paddles, and a shark swallow the canoe, and the Devil swallow the shark, and him locked up in the northwest corner of Hell, the key lost and a blind man hunting for it.” 

3.  The next morning a man who had heard the Prophet give the toast here referred to, visited the mansion of the Prophet, and so abused him with bad language, that he was ordered out by the Prophet.

4.  It was while the two were out, that my attention was attracted to them, and hearing the man speaking in a loud tone of voice, I went toward them, the man finally leaving. There were then present the Prophet Joseph Smith, Theodore Turley and myself. The Prophet began talking to us of the mobbings and drivings, the persecutions we as a people had endured. “But,” said he, “We will have worse things to see; our persecutors will have all the mobbings they want. Don’t wish them any harm, for when you see their sufferings, you will shed tears for them.” 

5.  While this conversation was going on, we stood by his south wicker gate in a triangle. Turning to me, he said, “I want to tell you something. In the future I will speak in parables like unto John, the Revelator.” (Little did I then think the prophet of the Lord would so soon be slain in cold blood.) 

6.  Continuing, he said, “You will go to the Rocky Mountains, and you will see a great and mighty people established, which I will call the White Horse of Peace and Safety.” 

7.  When the Prophet said, “You will see,” I asked him where he would be at that time.” He answered, “I shall never go there.” 

8.  ”Your enemies will continue to follow you with persecutions, and they will make obnoxious laws against you in Congress to destroy the White Horse. 

9.  ”But you will have a friend or two to defend you and throw out the worst part of the laws, so they will not hurt much. 

10.  ”You must continue to petition Congress all the time, but they will treat you like strangers and aliens, and they will not give you your rights but will govern you with strangers and commissioners; 

11.  ”You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed; it will hang by a thread, and that thread as fine as the finest silk fiber.” 

12.  At this point the Prophet’s countenance became sad; because as he said, “I love the Constitution; 

13.  ”It was made by the inspiration of God, 

14.  ”And it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse and the Red Horse who will combine in its defense. 

15.  ”The White Horse will raise an ensign on the tops of the mountains of peace and safety where all nations may flee unto for safety.  

16.  ”The White Horse will find the mountains full of minerals, and they will become very rich. You will find silver piled up in the streets. (At this time, it must be remembered that it was not known that the precious metals existed either in the Rocky Mountains or in California.) You will see gold shoveled up like sand. 

17.  ”Gold will be but of little value even in a mercantile capacity, for the people of the world will have something else to do in seeking for salvation. 

18.  ”The time will come when the banks in every nation will fail, and only two places will be safe where the people can deposit their gold and treasure. These places will be with the White Horse and England’s vaults. 

19.  ”A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before, for the land will be literally left without a supreme government, and every species of wickedness will run rampant; it will be so terrible that father will be against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother. The most terrible scenes of murder and bloodshed and rapine that have ever been looked upon will take place. 

20.  ”Peace will be taken from the earth, and there will be no peace only in the Rocky Mountains. This will cause hundreds and thousands of the honest in heart of the world to gather there, not because they would be saints, but for safety, and because they would not take up the sword against their neighbors. 

21.  ”You will be so numerous that you will be in danger of famine, but not for the want of seed time and harvest, but that so many will have to be fed. Many will come with bundles under their arms to escape the calamities, and there will be no escape, only by fleeing to Zion. 

22.  ”Those that come to you will try and keep the laws and be one with you, for they will see your unity and the greatness of your organizations. 

23.  ”The Turkish Empire or the Crescent will be one of the first powers that will be disrupted as a power, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to be preached in the Holy Land. 

24.  ”The Lord took of the best blood of the nations, and planted them on       the small island now called England, or Great Britain, and gave them great powers in the nations for a thousand years, and this power will       continue with them, that they may keep the balance of power, that they may keep Russia from usurping power over all the world. 

25.  ”England and France are now bitter enemies, but they will be allied together in order to keep Russia from conquering the world. 

26.  ”The two Popes, Greek and Catholic, will come together and be united. The Protestant religions do not know how much they are indebted to Henry VIII for throwing off the Pope’s bull and establishing the Protestant faith. He was the only monarch that could do so at the time, and he did it because the nation was at his back to sustain him. 

27.  One of the peculiar features in England is the established red coat, a uniform making so remarkable a mark to shoot at, and yet they have conquered wherever they have gone. The reason for this will be known by them some day. The Lion and the Unicorn of England is the ensign of Israel. The wisdom and statesmanship of England comes from there being so much of the blood of Israel in the nation. 

28.  ”While the terrible revolution of which mention has been made is going on, England will be neutral until it becomes so inhuman that she will interfere to stop the shedding of blood. England and France will then unite together and come with intention to make peace, not to subdue the nation. They will find the nation so broken up and so many claiming government, still there will be no responsible government. Then it will appear to the other nations or powers as though England had taken possession of the country.  

29.  ”The Black Horse will flee to the invaders and will join with them, for they will have fear of becoming slaves again, knowing England does not believe in slavery, fleeing to them, they believed would make them safe. Armed with British bayonets, the doings of the Black Horse will be terrible.” 

30.  So the Prophet said he could not bear to look longer upon the scene as shown him in vision, that he asked the Lord to close the scene. 

31.  Continuing, he said: “During this time, the great White Horse will have gathered strength, sending out elders to get the honest in heart of the United States to stand by the Constitution of the United States, as it was given by inspiration of the Lord. 

32.  ”In these days, God will set up a kingdom, never to be thrown down, for other kingdoms to come unto, and these kingdoms that will not let the Gospel be preached will be humbled until they will. 

33.  ”England, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, and Belgium have a considerable amount of the blood of Israel among their people, which must be gathered. These nations will submit to the Kingdom of God. England will do it as a whole, in comparison as she threw off the Catholic power. The nobility know the Gospel is true, but it has not enough pomp and grandeur and influence for them to embrace it. They are proud and will not acknowledge the Kingdom of God, or come unto it until they see the power which it will have. 

34.  ”Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by a cord and band of the White Horse and the Red Horse. 

35.  ”The coming of the Ten Tribes of Israel, the coming of the Messiah among His people, will be so natural that only those who see Him will know He has come, but He will come and give His law unto Zion and minister unto His people. This will not be His coming in the clouds of heaven to take vengeance on the world. 

36.  The Temple in Jackson County will be built in this generation. The saints will think there will not be time to build it, but with all the great help you will receive, you can put up a great temple quickly. You will have gold, silver, and precious stones, for these things only will be used for beautifying the temple, all the skilled mechanics you want, and the Ten Tribes of Israel to help you build it. When you see this land bounded with iron, you may look toward Jackson County.” 

37.  At this point he made a pause, and looking up as though the vision was still in view, he said, “There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese, unless great care and protection are given. Speaking of the heathen, where there is no law there is no condemnation; this will apply to them. 

38.  ”Power will be given the White Horse to rebuke nations afar off and they will obey, not that they will be one with the White Horse, but when the law goes forth, they will obey, for the law will go forth from Zion. 

39.  ”The last great struggle Zion will have to contend with will be when the whole of America will be made the Zion of God. 

40.  ”Those opposing will be called Gog and Magog The nations of the world       led by the Russian Czar and their power, will be great, but all   opposition will be overcome, and this land will be then the Zion of our  God.”

Please share.  This prophesy is too important to ignore.

Why would BELIEF be a virtue?

<Discussion continued from "The Origin of God">

Susie -  Question though, why would BELIEF be a virtue? Why would all powerful beings spend their time devising ways to trick people into unbelief? Why, really why, does God care if we suppose he exists? Is he really so insecure of his own reality that he feels it's awfully important for his children to believe he exists? I can understand a superior being concealing his identity, and not blatantly walking around the planet. If I was running an experiment on a planet, I would do the same thing. However, it makes no sense why a superior being would remain almost completely hidden, and still require his subjects insist that he really is there. It makes no sense that he would actually judge us on how certain we are of his reality. If knowing he existed was so vitally important to him, how about he just... I dunno... Makes himself known. It's because either no such person exists, or he does exist, and he absolutely isn't concerned with our "level of belief." Belief is not a virtue. It does not make you a more moral person, it does not make you a kinder person. In fact, it's so frequently opposite. Some of the most difficult people in the world are those that believe the strongest. As I have let go of my need to "believe" in stories, I have become a better person, a person Christ if he's real would get along much better with, a person who, if a superior being is watching, would be much prouder of. There is no monstrous,  evil creature taking ideas of how he can lead me astray to God, and God approves, because he likes tricking people, because he's testing how strong I can "believe" despite reason. I cannot makes myself any clearer, there is no one leading me astray. This journey is my own, it came from my heart, it came from my head. The beauty and truth I have discovered on this journey belongs to me and no one else. 

Are you familiar with the idea of memetics? I imagine you are. The reason the concept of "belief" has persisted as a standard for moral character, when belief does not inherently even GIVE you more moral character, is because the idea itself is self-preservatory. So many people believe that believing is good, because the very idea requires that you believe it. It's the evolution of memes, ideas, the same way organisms evolve. The same way viruses evolved because they happened to preserve and propagate themselves, so that there were more of them. And the better they survived and propagated, the more there were. Certain ideas in the mind behave the same way. If you think about it, really think about, "belief" as a virtue is almost completely arbitrary. Kindness. Loyalty. Confidence. These ideas clearly translate into wellbeing and survival for an organism, but belief? It persists because it happens to be a meme that viciously defends itself, and spreads from parent to child, from preacher to investigator. It's as arbitrary as if it just so happened that... Say... Crankiness was essential to your spiritual health. It's very important that you hold onto your crankiness! Being cranky shows how much you deserve to go to heaven. Those who aren't cranky, don't understand how powerful it feels to snap at people. God has asked us to be cranky! Therefore, display your crankiness often, to show your devotion to God.

Seth - First off, I want to thank you for being who you are.  As I reread through our previous posts, I was again impressed with your pure desires.  I feel sorry that for some reason the Mormon church was holding you back.  I'm glad that you have been able to make changes in your life for the better.  I want you to know that I respect your journey. 

I hope that after our discussions we can agree on a few things,

1 ) It is possible that a framework exists for the natural "evolution" of a God, making God's existence logical. 

2 )  Because of the many people who have experiences with prayer, the probability that a God exists is very high.

3 )  Belief is a virtue

4 )  It is logical to have faith in God and therefore follow a religious practice.

5 )  It is possible to have both belief and charity without sacrificing one for the other.

Your first question, "Why would belief be a virtue?"

I completely agree with you when you talk about memetics.  I was actually thinking about that before you posted about it.  I think that you bring up a great argument here.  It makes logical sense that cultures with no belief, had no belief passed on.  But eventually a belief might be generated in a society, and if it has enough intrinsic qualities to motivate others to belief it and spread it, it can be passed on.  You could say that different beliefs are just a bunch of memetics passed on to their kids and there is no intrinsic value in belief and you would have an argument there. 

Now, despite the strength of your argument, I would like to build the case for "belief" being a virtue.

Per wikipedia, "A virtue is a positive trait or quality deemed to be morally good and thus is valued as a foundation of principle and good moral being. Personal virtues are characteristics valued as promoting collective and individual greatness."

I have three points to make in this case.

1 ) If disbelief is a vice, then belief is a virtue

2 ) Belief benefits humanity

3 ) It is logical that God would desire us to believe if it has a spiritual function.

1 ) If disbelief is a vice, then belief is a virtue.

When I was young, I listened to my father tell me stories about how God had influenced his life, answered his prayers, and given him revelation by the spirit.  When I was young, I trusted my father to be an honest person. Because of this trust, I believed in the stories and therefore in God.  If my father was lying about all of those experiences, then I could have just sunk many of my following generations into a memetic trap with me retelling my father's stories at reunions by the campfire.

But the thing is, everything my father said was consistent with reality.  I eventually had my own spiritual experiences, which reconfirmed to me the reality of my father's experiences.  Now when I tell my grandchildren my personal experiences, they will be affected by these memes.

But the reality is, the experiences are all consistent with the gospel.  They all make sense within a religious framework.  They are all 100% true. 

I grew up in a household that was honest and pure.  My family members fully trusted each other.  I considered my younger brother to be one of the most virtuous people on the planet. When my younger brother tells me that he received an answer to his prayer, I do not doubt it.  I believe him.  I trust his character and integrity.  And everything he says is consistent with a religious framework that is logical.

As I grew into my teen years I began discussing some of the spiritual experiences with a variety of people.  I was shocked that people were so quick to disbelieve.  I was always the gullible one in school.  I never expected those around me to purposefully deceive in order to crack a joke.  I almost never told lies, and therefore had a worldview that imagined that people were like me and could be honest and virtuous all of the time.  I didn't realize that that was not the norm.

I quickly found that in my discussions with people about spiritual experiences that those who did not believe in God were also the people who did not trust others easily.  In fact, they didn't even trust members of their own family.  These people lived with a world view that "Hey, I have a habit of lying, therefore people around me are probably just like me, liars.'

I found that I had a negative feeling around those types of people.  There isn't really anything you can do for them.  No matter what you tell them, they won't believe you.  They have drunk the poison of their own lies and they are in a state of constant distrust of others.  It was as if they had given up on the idea that trustworthy people could exist in the world and therefore had no expectation for themselves to meet any standard of goodness.  I did not view their disbelief as a virtue, but rather as a vice.  Rather that being "liberated" from the captivity of "belief" they were trapped in the illusion of a world that is unstable, unreliable, unhappy, and lonely. 

Belief, on the other hand, should be liberating.  Belief means that you trust yourself and conversely trust others.  Belief means you can live without fear.  Belief means that you don't give up on what is good in the world.  Belief, as a function of trust, is a virtue.  It is a positive trait.  It promotes and inspires individual goodness and collective goodness.  When you believe in others, it makes them want to live up to that trust.  When you give out the "belief" vibe, others can sense it.  Others can tell when you give off that vibe because they instantly feel that you are trustworthy long before they could know you well enough to determine that factually.  It promotes unity, love, and mutual trust.  The lack thereof implies distrust, which works against love.

So generally, belief is a virtue.  When you believe in yourself, you will begin to believe in others.  And when you believe in others it opens you up to believing in God. 

2 ) Belief benefits humanity. 

Regardless of whether belief comes by the natural evolution of memes or by God's influence, religion has useful functions in a society.

A.  Belief supports integrity in humanity.

            I think that it is logical to say that belief in a higher power reinforces the morals of a society at any point in time.  Each culture develops moral codes for acceptable behavior in society.  Moral codes are often enforced by the people within that culture through a variety of rewards and punishments, whether social or physical.  Whenever an individual desires go against the moral code, the human must decide whether or not to put the moral code before or after his base desires.  The likelihood of the punishment can obviously influence the individual to choose to follow the moral code and therefore benefit society.  But when the likelihood of punishment is small, the human may be more likely to violate the moral code.  But belief in a higher power helps influence a human to always want to follow the moral code.   Belief reinforces integrity in all situations regardless of whether or not you will get caught.   Even if it isn't belief in a higher power, belief in goodness, belief in virtue, or belief in anything positive is more likely to keep a person following a moral code.  And that is good for humanity.  If a person doesn't believe in a higher power then they should at least believe in right and wrong.  But those who believe in nothing are the most likely to violate moral codes and damage society. 

B.  Belief supports unity of people in humanity.

            Despite common accusations against religion, religion has been one of the greatest unifiers within humanity.  The accusation that religion causes wars is most likely an issue of correlation rather than causation.  Throughout history the people who started wars wanted to start wars anyway.  Religion just helped them pick their targets better.  And the people without religion were equally involved in wars. 

Judaism helped unify the Jews as they traveled around the world in their diasporas.  Whenever the Jews became slaves, they focused on religion and were eventually able to unify themselves, reclaim freedom, regroup, and build a great civilization.

Christianity helps unify people into churches.  These churches provide support to people both locally and globally.  They benefit humanity.

Buddhism is a very flexible religion but still helps people develop unity.  People gather to learn Buddhism and meditate in Asia. They are a very peaceful people because of it.   When a typhoon struck Taiwan in 2009, I witnessed an impressive array of united Buddhists organizing themselves and gathering to the disaster zones to help clean up.

Islam, back in the day, was very successful at creating a peaceful empire where ideas could be exchanged and mathematics could be developed. 

They all have their own flavor of unity, but they do benefit humanity.

And often it is the disbelievers who declare war on the believers than one religion declaring war on another.  Hitler didn't kill Jews because his religion had a conflict with theirs.  Chinese Communists didn't persecute and massacre Fa Lun Gong members because their religions conflicted.  If Hitler or the Chinese Communists had more belief in religion maybe things would have been different.

3 ) It is logical that God would desire us to believe if it has a spiritual function.

Belief has multiple spiritual functions.

A. Connects us to what we believe in

B. Helps us develop greater moral strength

C. Feeds faith which feeds repentance

A. Connects us to what we believe in

A bittersweet aspect of belief is that it connects us to what we believe in. 

God wants us to believe in him because it spiritually connects us. 

We can receive great spiritual strength by being connected to him.

Likewise, fear of evil spirits is equivalent to believing in their malevolent power and also connects us to them.

The more we believe in evil spirits the more power they have over us.

I have very personal experience with both sides. 

I have learned that a confident belief is the healthy medium.

The confident belief is that you trust that the positive is stronger than the negative, and therefore, despite your belief in the evil spirits, you do not fear them.  I believe that this type of confident belief disarms them.

B. Helps us develop greater moral strength

It follows logically to say that

if God has all power, and

if God has all knowledge, and

if God is our father, and

if God loves us,

then

his teachings are for our good

his will is for our good

what he does is for our good

what he lets happen if for our good

Under this framework, we can understand that if this God teaches us to believe in him, then it must be for our own good.  If this God makes it hard for us to sense his existence, then that must also be for our good.

You bring up a good question - Is it logical for God to both make it hard for us to sense his existence and want us to believe in him?

This is a hard question because I can't say anything for certain. 

We don't necessarily know why God does what he does.

But to me, it is logical to think that God designed this life to be a test or a place to develop ourselves.

It is logical to me to say that we need a lot of experience in order to fully develop ourselves.

It is also logical that God would want us to mature independent of him.

For example, a father wouldn't want a son to only do chores when he is in town, but also when he is on business trips.  A father must teach his son to be accountable at all times, not only when he is around to enforce things.

Because of this, I think it is logical to say that acting morally because of a belief helps us develop a stronger moral strength than acting morally because of knowledge.  Basically, in the face of uncertainty, we still choose the right path. 

Therefore I think that it is perfectly reasonable and logical to believe that God make it hard for us to sense his existence and still want us to believe in him.

C. Feeds faith which feeds repentance

Belief is extremely important because it feeds faith and faith feeds the rest of your spirituality.

In church, faith is the first principle of the gospel.

It is the center of everything.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, but you can't do that if you don't believe in him.

If you were to compare different religious principles to different parts of the body, I would say that faith is the heart because it feeds all the other parts of the body/religion.  It gives purpose and meaning to all of the moral principles you believe. 

Without faith, your moral compass is limited to "how do things affect people/environment around me?".

But with faith, your moral compass extends to consider "how do things affect God/spirituality/people/environment." 

Because your moral compass is wider now, you begin to feel guilt for things that affect God/spirituality negatively and try to change those via repentance.  These positive behavior changes would never happen without belief.  The side effect that you might have witnessed is that sometimes people can put too much of their moral compass priority on "God/spirituality" and to little of their focus on "people / environment".  You might have realized in your journey that by eliminating "God/spirituality" you were able to focus more of your energy on "people / environment" and were able to be more charitable.  But ultimately, doing so reduces the scope of your moral compass.

Belief vs Charity

Now I would like to discuss with you the trade off between belief and charity.

You mentioned that as a Mormon you felt like you had to pick one or the other.

One analogy I learned from the Book of Mormon on my mission was that the Nephite civilization could become a symbol for my own personal spirituality.  An example was in the book of Helaman when Moroni fortifies all of the small cities.  I began to form an analogy that each city could represent a spiritual principle, like charity, virtue, kindness, diligence, obedience, knowledge, patience, honesty, etc.  But Moroni's only mistake was that in his fortifications, he left the capital of the Nephite civilization in a weaker state. 

The Lamanites (symbolizing Satan's temptations) would attack the small cities first and slowly inch their way towards the capital, symbolizing Satan's efforts to start with small temptations and gradually get to the core of our belief and destroy it.

The Lamanites attacked the small cities but were forced to retreat because they were well fortified.  Perhaps a person is well developed in patience and honesty.  When Satan tempts them in those areas he makes little progress.  But what happened was one of the Nephites left and joined the Lamanites.  Symbolically, part of an individual began to sympathize with Satan's position.  Once that Nephite had switched teams, the Lamanites knew exactly which city was weakest.  It was their capital.  The Lamanites marched straight through their civilization and took over the capital in one sweeping blow. 

Luckily, all of the small cities were able to regroup and recover the capital.  So investing in "christlike" attributes pays off because they can be mobilized to help you in other areas of your life.  But the key point here is the importance of faith.  Sometimes there is a trade off between fortifying faith and fortifying Christ-like attributes.  Maybe this is part of what you were going through as a Mormon.  You felt that too much faith left too little room for charity.  But you need to understand that they work together.  Don't believe that they are mutually exclusive.  You can build up both of them at the same time. 

The Origin of God & Proving God's Existence through Personal Experience

Proving God's Existence through Personal Experience

"Eight facts about me -

1) I almost died as a baby twice. 

2) I didn't really care for vacations and pets growing up.

3) I graduated from ASU when I was 18 years old.

4) I got so good at Chinese on my mission that people confused me for a native on the phone.

5) I sometimes have dreams about the future.

6) I know (not believe) that God exists.

7) I started my own side-business but it hasn't really gone anywhere yet.

8) I rode on the back of a live crocodile once and was unharmed.

Like this post to get a number!"

It all started as one of those silly Facebook posts. But that was when it happened… A facebook friend, whom we will refer to as "Susie", began posting on my wall.

 Susie - How do you define what "knowing" is?

 Seth - I know God exists when I have spiritual experiences that are so profound or consistent that coincidence is completely out of the question.

 Susie - Wouldn't that be considered strong belief still, though? Unless the evidence is so strong that no other conceivable explanation could possibly be true, it's belief, not knowledge, right? Even coincidence is a potential explanation. If any other possibility exists, it just baaaarley falls short of knowledge.

 Seth - Consistent spiritual experiences provide the evidence needed to "know" God exists. Because each experience builds off of the last one and the probability that somehow these things naturally occur in an organized manner without the assistance of God becomes less and less with each experience. When the probability of God existing becomes greater than 99.9999% I call that knowledge.

 Susie - Cool. I wanna hear your list of events that renders the probability of the existence of God to 99.9999%. That would be mightily interesting. Pm me, if you get the chance/desire to do so.

 Seth - The equation I use is quite simple - P(God) = 1.00 - P(Every experience is a coincidence)

 And then the private messaging began…

 Seth -
 -How I know God exist -
----------------------------
P(God) = 1.00 - P(Every experience is a coincidence)

List of personal experiences with estimated probabilities

 #1 - Age 4-8
Memorized scriptures - felt inspired and able to fully understand the truth in each verse my mind was enlightened and expanded by the words.
P(God #1) = 1% God, 99% coincidence

#2 - Age 4-6
Sometimes I would lose my toys. After I would pray to find them, I would find them immediately.
 Quantity of instances 3+
P(God#2a) = 10%, 90% coincidence
P(God#2b) = 10%, 90% coincidence
P(God#2c) = 10%, 90% coincidence


#3 - Age 5
 Five members of my family were looking for a small object for 60 minutes + None of us could find it. We combed the house twice. After we all gathered for a family prayer, I was able to find it immediately afterwards.

Two events happened at the same time - Event(find object) and Event(pray). A simple probability model could say that within the timeframe of 60 minutes, there are 60 open slots for either event.

 The probability that both events happened within the same minute would be 1/60 * 1/60 = 1/360
 That is less likely to happen than to pray "Please bless this coin to land on heads 8 times in a row" and have it succeed. Not very likely to happen randomly. But hey, anything is possible.
P(God#3) = 20%, 80% coincidence

#4 - Age 8
The spirit guided me to return home at the same time that my family had gathered together in prayer because they were looking for me and thought they had lost me. Again, very unlikely. I had no idea that my family was praying for me, but I felt a strong urge to go home, despite my more selfish urges to stay outside.

Event(weird urge to go home) = 1 / 1000 times playing outside
Event(family prays to find me) = 1 / 1000 prayers.
The fact that these two events coincided at exactly the same time?
1/1000 * 1/1000 = 1 / 1,000,000 But hey, lets be reasonable! Coincidences happen!
P(God#4) = 70%, 30% coincidence

#5 - Age 3
When I was 3 my mom had me and my brother Sam. My mom was curious about how many children she would have. She prayed. Immediately after the prayer, I stopped playing with my toys and walked over to her and said, "Mommy, you are going to have five babies." and then I went back to my toys.

Event(Child leaves toys to talk to mommy) - 1/10 times playing with toys
Event(Child says something) - 1,000 random possibilities
Event(Mommy's question) - 1,000 random possibilities
Event(random words predict future) - 1 / 1000

This scenario alone shows that the probability of things playing out this way is extremely rare.
The fact that what I said matched up to her question is 1 / 1,000,000.
The fact that what I said actually came true makes it even more extraordinary at 1 / 1,000,000,000
But hey coincidences happen.
P(God) = 99% , 1% coincidence

#6 - Age 9
My parents were trying to decide which house to move into. The "red" house or the "white" house. The red house was bigger with more bathrooms, but the white house was near our cousins. My parents asked us to pray if God would help us make a decision on where to move. My always said my prayers but had never asked a question like this before. I opened my prayer like normal, but before I could finish asking the question, the answer to my question came like a revelatory bolt of lightning to my brain. It felt like the words were downloaded from heaven to my consciousness. The words came faster than I could think on my own.

 I heard the words saying, "Is a toilet going to stop you from being with your family?"

At that time I consciously knew that I had received a revelation from God. I knew that it was not my own head speaking. It was a completely new cognitive experience. There was zero doubt in my mind that God was real after this experience. After I heard these words I felt a strong urge to write them down before I forgot them. I left the note on my dresser. In the morning my parents say the note and were so impressed that they didn't need an explanation from me because they knew that those were the words of God. Needless to say, we moved into the "white" house.
E(prayer contains random question) - 1 / 1000 possibilities
P(Head randomly comes up with a response to questions) - 90% likely
P(responses impresses adults to think it is from God) - 1% likely
P(Head thinks faster than it is able to) - 0.1 % likely
P(Head experiences a new cognitive feeling like lightning) - 0.1% likely
P( Reasonable person is 100% convinced that God spoke to them) - 0.1 % likely

Multiplying all of the probabilities (ignoring the Event) it comes out to 0.000000000009 which is equal to 1 / 111,111,111,111 Very unlikely to happen randomly. But we will give coincidence the benefit of the doubt.
P(God) - 99%, 1% coincidence

-------------------------------------------------
This is just the first 10 years of my life.
-------------------------------------------------

P(Every experience is a coincidence) = .99 * .90 * .90 * .90 * .80 * .30 * .01 * .01 = 0.000017321
P(God) = 99.999982679%

-------------------------------------------------

 It was at this point in my life that I became convinced of myself that I "knew" God was real.

Susie - Very interesting math. However, I don't see the logical connection between an event occurring, and a human shaped omnipotent being existing. What you've calculated there is the probability of all those events happening exactly way they did. And yes, the probability of all that happening is extremely unlikely. It would be very unlikely for those exact events to recreate themselves somewhere else in the universe. But that calculation has nothing to do with a specific idea of an anthropomorphic father-like deity. You applied that conception to your math because that was the idea you were given to believe, and you work to prove that it is true, because that is your desire.


 Seth - No, you are reading more out of what I claimed that was actually said. I only claimed that I "knew" God existed, commonly defined as an intelligent power greater than us. Although my experiences don't necessarily prove that he is a male father, I view it as highly probable because multiple events show that this "God" responds to prayer addressing "God" as a "heavenly father". 


Susie - An intelligent power greater than us isn't the common definition of God. An alien species could be an intelligent power greater than human beings, but unless they are directly in charge of/watching/meddling with our planet, they are not our gods. If I had to place a bet, I'd personally bet that there ARE greater intelligences in our universe, but I don't find my good fortune, or any person's good fortune, a reason to believe that they are meddling in our affairs.


Seth - sorry i meant a supernatural intelligence greater than our own that has a supernatural power greater than our own -


 Susie - You're saying that because a few fortunate events occurred in close chronology with a spiritual act, the spiritual act must have a causal relationship with the event. However, a very religious person will perform spiritual acts so frequently, that it is to be expected that in the course of decades, a few of these acts will coincide with the outcome that you desire/are looking for. More frequently, however, these spiritual acts pass by without any fortunate events. If you could count the number of times a devout religious person prays against the number of times they got the sign they were looking for, I imagine it would not be statistically significant.

Also, if you were to conduct a randomized study on prayers vrs non prayers and recorded the number of times an event appears fortunate/remarkable, the data would be almost identical, certainly not statistically significant. Every person experiences these unlikely events, whether you are praying or not. That's because unlikely events happen all the time in this universe, but we're programmed to estimate probabilities in our minds automatically. When an event strikes our programming as highly improbable, it feels to us like a "miracle".

  I would LOVE to see a study done on a large number of people of the same socioeconomic class and similar lifestyle, half pray to God, half are completely unreligious, and see if the number of times a religious person feels god helped them is significantly greater than how many times the secular feel lucky. Why had no one done that?? Maybe they have... I'm gunna look it up


 Seth - I know what you are saying but there is no "pray" event that can be correlated with the "fortunate" event in a non-religious household so there will probably not be any significant feeling of luck. Without prayer, people find things when they find them. "Lucky" would imply they always find things quickly. But that is not the case for either demographic.

The difference will be that when the non-religious person is willing to give up, the religious person turns to prayer.

That behavioral factor alone could increase the success of "finding" among religious people, but there is more to it than just a behavioral change. There has to be a supernatural component because there is no natural reason why you would find things "immediately" after prayer. Prayer skeptics say, "Well its because your mind is thinking clearer when you stop and think for prayer." But according to my experience, the prayer does not help you "clearly think" of where it is. The finding event is completely random, which means subconscious guidance was involved.

 Plenty of people have guidance at the subconscious level and some have guidance at a conscious level. Many mormons have stories that play out similar to this -
1) mormon is traveling one direction,
2) spiritual inner voice tells them to stop/ change directions,
3) mormon tries to ignore inner voice because it doesnt make sense,
4) feeling/voice consistently warns the mormon 3 times,
5) mormon finally gives in and listens,
6) following the guidance saves their life from an unseen danger.

 This obviously shows that "God" exists. Where does this higher intelligence come from if not God? and supernatural feelings and thoughts that answer your questions better than you could come up with? those must come from "God" answers to questions that accurately predict the future? again - God is the only good answer - i haven't even got to burning in the bosom, healings, gift of tongues and demons yet. sure maybe humanity evolved a "God" cortex of the brain that can think supernaturally, but I think that God's existence is a much better answer than that of a "God" cortex of the brain can only explain away some things. It can't explain away burning in the bosom, healings, gift of tongues and demons.


Susie - I can provide explanations for each of those, actually. I've learned a lot about what the human body can experience without any outside stimulus, purely through the brain. I won't go into it because it's really personal, so never mind.

 Everything has an explanation. Because this universe strictly follows rules. If there is a mystery, it's simply because a sensible explanation has not been found yet. Some may not be within our reach to ever find, actually, but the reason still exists. Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be NOT magic. If there is something going on here, if people are somehow getting access to wisdom, then something REAL is happening. It could be that encoded in our dna are stores of information from our ancient ancestors. Or maybe our epigenetics were influenced by the last few generations, and we're getting wisdom from our grandparents. Or maybe somehow conscious minds can access a collective source of information. Or maybe your neurons fired perfectly randomly (the way neurons do) and jumped to a correct conclusion, which is one of the coolest, most powerful part of our brains. Whatever it is, it's something that makes sense. The idea that an outside entity is consciously giving you information is just one idea in a sea of ideas. Maybe someone's been stalking you your whole life, setting up these scenarios to trick you (ridiculous of course, but you see what I'm saying.

There are actually NUMEROUS possible explanations, but you spend your energy defending only one, because not believing it is too great a sacrifice for you. To lose your faith would be losing to much, so you're not willing to go there).   Sorry for all the grammatical errors, not editing.


Seth - Im an honest person. I don't think that my belief in God is based on a dependence upon the social structure related to that explanation. I believe that God existing is the BEST explanation. In my opinion, none of your alternative explanations are even close to this one as a reasonable explanation for why the universe is the way it is. The existence of a God makes way more sense than a collective knowledge source (which I view as the second best explanation you have offered).
 1) collective knowledge source doesn't explain creation, the source of intelligences/spirits, the existence or good and evil, nor miracles, nor healing, nor demons, nor prophesy.
 2) collective knowledge source when compared with God's existence is equally supernatural and no more likely to be true than God actually existing.
3) a collective source of information doesn't explain our purpose. If we area all taping into collective information, why does it "tap" into us? It would make sense that in dire circumstances our brain can be triggered to activate this "collective information" function, but how does the collective information foresee danger before the individual is aware that there is a dire circumstance and project a thought upon the individual against their will? It is obvious that this "collective source of information" It has an intelligence of its own.


 Susie - You are right, that explanation doesn't make much sense. I wouldn't place a bet on it. I do however find the probability that a fully formed complex being popping into existence unlikely. A single point of energy though.... Still crazy to pop into existence, but not nearly as improbable as a complex organism being the beginning of everything. Does that make sense? Even if there are superior aliens or something "in charge" of our world, they arose from the same point of energy... I guess what I'm saying is that even if there is some sort of "god" living in our universe, it probably didn't create the universe it's in. Meaning god isn't really god in the traditional sense. If a godlike creature living in this universe DID create it, then it existed before the universe existed. Explaining why God would exist in the first place is a much more difficult question than how a point of energy might arise through a moment of quantum weirdness. The truth is, it's all the same question: why does ANYTHING exist at all? Saying, "because, god." is just the same question once removed, except way more complicated. Ok, but then where does God come from? You run into an infinite digress, and the question actually becomes much harder to answer.

 Given all that, I think simulation theory is the best explanation for the possibility of "god". I may even place a bet on simulation theory, I like it. Though it still runs into the infinite digress problem, which irks my logical mind.

Though of course I have to admit that just because it bothers my logical mind doesn't mean it's not true. I don't know anything. Nobody knows, KNOWS exactly how it works yet. And I'm ok with that. The joy of science is in continual discovery, why try hard to learn if you already have it all figured out. Anyone that says they "know" something currently unknowable is cutting themselves off from discovering other avenues of truth and possibilities. Because if information contradicts what you "know", pride will have you discount whatever it is, or twist the information to fit the world view you have chosen/publicly declared your certainty of. Far better to be open, than certain. Much better to adjust your beliefs based on what's observed, than to deny observation so that faith can be preserved.

 Btw, this conversation is so epic! I feel like we should post it somewhere, haha. Thank you thank you, I love a mormon who will actually debate me, I need the mental stimulation


The Origin of God

 Seth - I feel likewise. I look forward to responding to this once I get back to my computer hehe

 Okay, first off, I want you to have confidence that I am different than many "orthodox" religious people. I consider myself very open minded and open to new ideas. I have attended other Christian churches and studied Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Ancient Egyptian religions, and Mayan/Native American religion. Additionally I have read/skimmed through ancient apocrypha such as the Enochian records and Adam & Eve apocrypha.

 Ever since I was 9 years old, I felt a lot like Joseph Smith. I had this amazing spiritual experience (though not as impressive as Joseph Smith's) I found it impossible for me to deny the reality of what I had experienced.

At a young age the idea of God existing became so obvious to me that I was intrigued by the idea that smart people would struggle with this concept. I tried to see if I could "convert" athiests online. I went to scientific forum websites and would chat with smart people and try convince them of God's existence. I found it to be very difficult to persuade them. They would often bring up scientific issues with the Bible and discrepancies and topics like evolution.

At first I was opposed to the idea of evolution. But the more I listened to them I kept an open mind and what they were saying started making sense. I started to grow fond of the idea of evolution, but it didn't stop me from believing in God. As a person with a computer programmer mind, I viewed evolution as a beautiful computer program that is set up to autonomously create, improve, and adapt life. It was an ingenious system. It made sense. I thought that if I was God, I would also program the universe to have evolution.

 But I also had similar questions to you. I am also a deep thinker. What happened before the big bang, etc. At first I was also opposed to the idea of the Big Bang, but likewise, this concept grew on me. It seemed like another perfectly designed program for the creation of universes. If I was God, I would also program a Big Bang to get my universes started.

But the thing that helped me deepen my understanding of God and the Gospel the most was my study of Black Holes. Black holes answer all the deep questions. I don't think that God was created inside this universe, but rather He first began within the mother universe of our own.

How is something created from nothing? The laws of physics would like to fool you into thinking that that is not possible.

The law of conservation of energy is often poorly interpreted as "Energy cannot be created or destroyed but only changes its form."

But what I would like you to open your eyes to the possibility that there is a way to create something from nothing within the laws of physics… and that is by the mutual creation of positive and negative energy.

Conservation of energy only requires that the net energy remains the same in a system. But what if we add energy, and we also add negative energy?  We have created energy while maintaining the balance. Suppose "In the beginning" there was zero energy. But amazingly something is created out of nothing!!! But its opposite must be created in order to maintain the balance. So our universe changes from…
0 = 0
to
0 = 1 + (-1)


 Susie - Cool, making sense so far


 Seth - This can also happen if we start with 1
1 = 1

1 = 1 + [ +1 -1]

 With regard to God's complexity, you are probably thinking, "well if God started in a prior universe, the what about his God, and then what about the prior God, all the way into the beginning, how did we first have God?"

You have to realize that Evolution and the Big Bang aren't the only beautiful programs in place for the creation and development of intelligences. You also have to understand that there is a finer level of energy that we have less grasp on, which is spiritual matter.

Just as physical matter can evolve, so can spiritual. So in the beginning of every beginning, maybe there was just zero -  zero physical and zero spiritual.   But some quantum activity spontaneously created +1 -1 for both the spiritual and physical.  And then, just how the physical matter slowly bonds to itself to become stronger and more complex, the spiritual matter also bonds to itself and becomes stronger and more complex.

More quantum mistakes create more +1 and -1 and more matter of both types is gathered and naturally organizing itself onto each other.

Somehow the physical is able to attract the spiritual and they learn from each other. The first universe slowly evolved life, with began attracting spiritual matter. It is possible that through this process similar to this, the first God of Gods was "evolved". But then a system grew into place where this evolution could be replicated in subsequent universes.

And that is why it is easy for me to believe in God. Because I belief there are natural programs in place for the evolution of complexity in creatures both mentally and physically.

And with regard to the "power" of God, I think that an easy analogy would be to compare Gods power to your own.


 Susie - Now you're speakin my language!  Love it


 Seth - The Hindu's believed in multiple universes and they also believed that the human body is a symbol for the universe. The hindu's even when so far as to say that your body actually IS a universe. And so if you think about it, we ALREADY are God's of our OWN universe.


 Susie - Cool, that's what my sister believes


 Seth - We can move our hands and our feet according to our desires, within the laws of the universe. Just as we control our universe, God controls his. If you try to move your hand, what does it take? Does just purely imagining moving the hand cause it to move? Nope, you actually have to WILL it to move. That is a spiritual function.


 Susie - That's an interesting take on will, I was just trying to explore that idea with my bf yesterday!


 Seth - Now you may say, "We can move our hands because we are connected to them. But how does God move something that he is not connected to?" And that is when I would say that the Mother Black Hole to this universe IS connected to everything within the Child Universe, and therefore, there is a mechanism in place for God, via the Mother Black Hole, to be connected to everything.


 Susie - Like an umbilical chord? Are you saying that the universe IS god?


 Seth - Not really, I'm saying that I think that it is probably that God is an evolved intelligence from a prior universe who became immortal and pure enough to reside within a Black Hole and survive. By becoming pure enough to withstand the Black Hole, he becomes the master of it. By living inside of the Black Hole he becomes connected to it and can manipulate it according to his will, just as if it was a part of him.

 Additionally, I have a theory that it takes 2 to create a child universe. Alone, this "God" has only a Black Hole. But when his "Wife" inherits a Black Hole, they begin to revolve around each other. My theory continues to say that by virtue of 2 black holes revolving around each other, the two opposing directions of gravity create the strongest known burden on space-time, both tugging the same space at levels exceeding the speed of light. Under these conditions, space is ripped and positive and negative matter are created. Perhaps because both parents are "positive" matter, the parents absorb half of the newly created matter. The left over "negative" matter is repelled away from the parental twin-Black Hole system at speeds approaching the speed of light. The rip in space perhaps sends this newly created negative matter flying into another dimension, and thus we have a new universe full of "negative" matter.

http://scitechdaily.com/astronomers-use-gravitational-waves-understand-black-hole-growth/


Of course, when the negative matter slows down and becomes gravitationally attracted to itself, it will form planets and the subsequent life forms will never know the difference between a "positive" matter planet and a "negative" matter planet.  But because Black Holes slow time down to zero, that act alone connects them to everything. When time is zero, the past present and future all happen at once. You become a creature of a higher dimension.  An analogy could be, if us humans were to become zero time creatures, we would exist at every point in time at the same time. If we ran in a circle, our zero - time self would exist at every point in the circle. We would basically exist at multiple points in time at once, like a bunch of clones. But we are all connected. We are still the same. I still have control my hand in every point in time.

Similarly, the Black Hole becomes God's hand.  Everything created out of the Black Hole becomes like an extension of his hand. He can move planets like we move fingers. He can heal wounds like we blink our eyes.


 Susie - I've got to say, this is a completely new and original philosophy. I haven't heard one quite like it, and I, well, quite like it! I have had similar thoughts about mother /daughter universes and had even considered black holes as the mechanism for reproduction, but nothing quite like that. It's interesting how you can fit it in with some of the deeper mormon doctrine. My boyfriend always tries to find ways to do that. He'll really dig this theory, I think, I'll show it to him. You see, it's alternative concepts of God like these that I can consider. I am an atheist to certain concepts of God, just as you are, and sometimes an agnostic deist when it comes to more sensible models. My goal is always to eliminate dogma, so it is important for me to have these kinda of conversations with religious people, to keep me in check. Atheists are wonderful people, I love my friends, but sometimes we think too similarly and there isn't a lot of growth happening. And that was why I left Mormonism in the first place, so I would stop surrounding myself with people who only confirmed my world view, never challenged it. If I continued to do that, I would be something of a hypocrite, wouldn't I. I left Mormonism because I was tired of feeling better/righter than the whole world. It made me less compassionate. It made me less understanding. I felt that only mormons had meaningful lives. It also caused me pain, the ideas presented to me about my roles. I just wasn't good as a mormon. The funny thing is, the more I let go of my old beliefs, the more "christlike" I became. It was fascinating to be able to watch myself finally live the principles taught in the gospel, when I stopped holding to the gospel so tightly. Weird irony, I guess.


 Seth - I appreciate your honesty and opinions Believe me, regardless of whether or not God exists, it doesn't make this life any more simple. There are an infinite amount of challenges that we can go through. I believe you when you say that you feel that letting go of the gospel helped you be more "christlike".  I don't believe that this life is simple or easy at all.

 I also believe in Satan obviously. I believe that Satan has a lot more power than we understand. I think that a lot of Satan's power can be explained in the book of Job. Satan has the ability to get permission from God to do things in our lives to challenge our faith. I believe that each of us mormons is a target of Satan and he uses different tactics to weaken us.

 I can imagine Satan talking with God and saying, "Well God, Seth loves you because you answer his prayers. Well what if you start giving him the opposite of what he asks for? I doubt he will continue strong in the faith after a trial like that." And God gives Satan permission to do that.

 And then Satan goes to God and says, "Susie loves you because it makes sense to her, religion is intellectually stimulating to her, and she feels more christ-like. But if you make things confusing for her, take away the intellectual stimulation, and make her feel like she isn't fully christ-like, she will stop believing in you."

 And God gives Satan permission to push us to our limits, [which are sometimes more mental than physical]. Sometimes people let it get to them. Sometimes they don't.

 Additionally check out this website - 
http://www.templestudy.com/2008/09/17/nuwa-and-fuxi-in-chinese-mythology-compass-square/

 There is a picture in one of Hue Nibley's books about an ancient chinese mythology which helped me form my theories the connect the gospel with black holes.

The Chinese drawing depicts two people, male and female, who are "revolving" around each other They are obviously creatures of a higher level than we are, since they appear to have the ability to fly among the cosmos. They also have Mormon temple symbols in their hands. Thee message written on the artwork is quoted as saying, [“the way things should be, the moral standard”; it literally means the compass and the square."] What I get from this is that the ancient chinese understood Eternal Marriage, Exaltation, and even more, perhaps my Black Hole theory of revolving partners.

Could it be that entering a state of zero time is what the ancients really meant by the term "nirvana"?